Curse

lennymon · Jun 14, 2007, 12:21 AM // 00:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

prove they are broken!?

If they're so broken why don't we see GVG matches running 6 Hex casters and 2 monks? Yup, it's on account of they are 'usefull' not 'broken'. Some builds don't use Mesmer OR Necro and instead have some Eles or Rits or Paras. I know this'll sound like crazy talk to you, but... If it really were broken do you actaully think there would be any way top guilds *wouldn't* be all running merciless hex onslaught builds? 'Hexes' are balanced, there may be some which need fine tuning but as I'm sure you are aware, with such a vast selection of superior hex removal options there IS balance.

DieInBasra · Jun 14, 2007, 12:28 AM // 00:28

This has been said enough in the thread on the changes in Gladiator Arena, but I think it needs to be sent through one more time here

Quote:

[*] Expose Defenses: increased recharge time to 15 seconds.

Good game, anet. Good game.

anshin · Jun 14, 2007, 12:34 AM // 00:34

thanks SlyClone... some cold minded person here...

people who want to rant simply go outside and smack someone... you know you won't stop playing this game whatever changes they make... and if you do... way better for us(who accept anything and adapt)...

as i said... nice update

Bai · Jun 14, 2007, 12:35 AM // 00:35

I don't like how ritspike is dominating in HA either, but please consider the number of PvE Ritualist players that want some diversity in their builds instead of always spamming spirits.

Despozblehero · Jun 14, 2007, 12:41 AM // 00:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bai

I don't like how ritspike is dominating in HA either, but please consider the number of PvE Ritualist players that want some diversity in their builds instead of always spamming spirits.

I totally agree with you not to ruin the rit for PvE. I tried to suggest making some of the skills that spam damge/heal more conditional. there may be a better way. but its needed so bad, if rit was a core class id probably not gripe as much but they have more use than some of the core classes in PvP. wont see 8 unranked mesmers running around spiking, holding halls, and beating people down with any success

.

l Artemis Entreri l · Jun 14, 2007, 12:46 AM // 00:46

when will this update actually take effect? we should just play it out and then criticize.

Miral · Jun 14, 2007, 12:54 AM // 00:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by l Artemis Entreri l

when will this update actually take effect? we should just play it out and then criticize.

most likely tomorrow. most of the big updates seem to come thursday afternoon pacific time...

Skyy High · Jun 14, 2007, 12:55 AM // 00:55

Seems to me like this update is as much about PvE as PvP.

Armor stacking paragons were a problem in PvP...but, as apparently a lot of people have missed, ANet was concerned with armor stacking in a lot of different areas...could it be possible that the hit to the standard DoA earth ele tank build was intended, and not collateral? =O

Soul Reaping, yeah, ANet's approach to that balance has been PvE centric from the beginning. If they were only focused on PvP, killing energy gain from spirits would have been fine, but no, they wanted to limit its use in PvE as well, because it provided ridiculous amounts of energy with no slots devoted to emanagement.

Some of the buffs and nerfs are obviously just for PvP; Defensive Anthem is crap in PvE but annoying in PvP in duos, for example. But the, "zomg PVP sux, split the skillz!" isn't rational. Heck, SS was obviously nerfed for PvE; no one uses that in PvP. Reducing it to 10 energy was a bit of a surprise in the first place, it's still useful and powerful at 15 energy...and guess what, now you'll actually be bumped back up to full energy when the mob of onis in the Deep die from echoed-SS nuking.

@Lennymon: The point of hexes being unbalanced is that two characters (3, if you have a water ele as well) spamming hexes can shut down all of the offense, and mostly all of the defense, of most other teams. No one brings 6 hex spammers because that's redundant, and unnecessary; 2 is more than sufficient due to how long a lot of passive hexes last, which means you have the rest of the slots in your build open for warriors, dervishes, or what have you to kill stuff.

countesscorpula · Jun 14, 2007, 01:16 AM // 01:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

I lol'd.

For the record, I'm not flaming here, but I'd like some of the following concerns to be at least considered:

2) You're leaving Searing Flames alone because you "expect a lot of destruction from Fire Magic?" Hmm, well I expect to get wet if I go outside while it's raining, but that doesn't mean I don't bring an umbrella. Getting wet is a problem, so I fix it. Searing Flames is a problem, so fix it... something simple, such as lowering the area of effect maybe, would go a long way.

You bring an umbrella when you expect it to rain, hunh? But you don't expect it to stop raining? Ok. Why don't you bring "Frigid Armor" when you expect SF. No burning = wasted elite skill for opposition. FA is not an elite, only needs Att 10 to keep it up until recharged (so any second prof could handle it), and at 5 energy, even a warrior could support it in their skill bar. Short cast time too. Plus the basic additional 30 armor vs phys means that the skill isn't wasted if you aren't facing an SF team. 30 armor, + no burning, sounds like problem solved to me.

"But I don't wanna have Ele as my second profession!" All I have to say to that is, if the skies look cloudy, bring an umbrella. If SF teams are showing up frequently, bring Frigid Armor.

Skye Marin · Jun 14, 2007, 01:44 AM // 01:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by countesscorpula

You bring an umbrella when you expect it to rain, hunh? But you don't expect it to stop raining? Ok. Why don't you bring "Frigid Armor" when you expect SF. No burning = wasted elite skill for opposition. FA is not an elite, only needs Att 10 to keep it up until recharged (so any second prof could handle it), and at 5 energy, even a warrior could support it in their skill bar. Short cast time too. Plus the basic additional 30 armor vs phys means that the skill isn't wasted if you aren't facing an SF team. 30 armor, + no burning, sounds like problem solved to me.

"But I don't wanna have Ele as my second profession!" All I have to say to that is, if the skies look cloudy, bring an umbrella. If SF teams are showing up frequently, bring Frigid Armor.

While Frigid Armor is a half-decent counter to SF, it's not an ideal or absolute one. For example, frigid is a self-cast enchantment and can be removed if you're be targeted. SF is a nearby AoE skill carried by a handful of casters that can make room on their bars for utility, like Gale and Gaze of Contempt and Signet of Humility. Other suggested counters, like Signet of Humility, removing the Attunements, and interrupts don't work all that well either because of the spammy nature of SF, and the number of people casting it at the same time, repeatedly. Counters exist, but that spawns counter-counters, and by using a counter, you won't have enough flexibility for a counter-counter-counter. Saying "I'm going to expect Melee Pressure, so I'll bring Gaurdian" isn't at all the same as saying "I'm going to expect Searing Flames, so I'll bring Frigid Armor."

SF is mainly flawed because the more copies of it in play, the better it gets. This same basic flaw can be found in almost all other degenerative builds, like hex stacking, Echos and Chants, the old SR with spirits, and Spirit Spam Rit Spike. You can also see it in the old Fragility spike, the current SB/RI spike, and even in Signet of Mystic Wrath spike. The key here would be to remove the stacking effects of similar skills, not hurting one caster, but definitely hurting a pile of them using the same ideas. It's important to note that the problem is with the skill, not the counter.

For example: Take SF. Increase the burning duration to 8 seconds, but whenever it does the extra damage, cause it to remove the burning after it does the damage, or do damage based on how long the burning was on for. This would mess with the synergy of SF + Glowing Gaze in a team of SF casters, and lower DPS of the build in SF teams of three or more because the burning would have to be re-applied by the next hit. Alternatively, you could lower the damage from 115 to around 80, but then increase the burning time to 10 seconds. This means most of the damage is caused from the burning, instead of the extra casts. The skill is still potent with one caster, but not abusive with multiple.

Another example: Take spirits. There are tons of skills that rely on ally spirits to function, and if a whole team has a couple, then there will almost always be one spirit on the field to cast off of. If, instead, those skills relied on a spirit under your direct control, then spirit-heavy teams would be vulnerable to spirits being destroyed. Destroying the spirits belonging to the healer would make his Spirit Light sac health, and destroying the spirit belonging to the Spirit Burn caster would make it less potent.

lennymon · Jun 14, 2007, 02:04 AM // 02:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

@Lennymon: The point of hexes being unbalanced is that two characters (3, if you have a water ele as well) spamming hexes can shut down all of the offense, and mostly all of the defense, of most other teams. No one brings 6 hex spammers because that's redundant, and unnecessary; 2 is more than sufficient due to how long a lot of passive hexes last, which means you have the rest of the slots in your build open for warriors, dervishes, or what have you to kill stuff.

I appreciate you taking the effort to read and make a counterpoint, and politely too *salute*. I also understand the point, but shutting down the other team's offense at the cost of 3 spots on the team *is* offense, pressure. My point was (while my exageration approach was not very clearly stated) that while yes, I agree it's effective it's really no worse than 3 of anything else. Everything has a counter, sometimes it's only counter is a similar build yes, but it's a counter. A Divert monk can remove a lot of hexes but not all are important to remove, but against a hex light team it's harder to justify. A full team of cripshot rangers is super annoying too, running around continually plinking everyone... but not unbabalanced. I'm hoping my point is a little clearer now, just because hexes slow the oppositions physical game down doesn't make it unbalanced. Hexes is a hugely broad supercategory, and encompasses too many divergent aspects for it to be simply 'broken'. Enchantments, physical weapons, armor ignoring damage and weapon spells are just as equally 'broken' in the hands of a well built team with experience.

Do I think there are *some* hex based builds which are played too frequently to be mere coincedence? Yes, and I agree that some fine tuning wouldn't hurt in order to encourage other builds. But 'hexes' aren't the problem anymore than monks are the problem, after all 2 monks can often stall the entire enemy team's offensive push to destroy your team right?

Skye Marin · Jun 14, 2007, 02:45 AM // 02:45

Melandru's Resilience is pretty spiffy now.

Selor · Jun 14, 2007, 02:56 AM // 02:56

Trade spam reduction, HELL YEAH!

Elnai · Jun 14, 2007, 03:15 AM // 03:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Selor

Trade spam reduction, HELL YEAH!

Thats actually secret code for mini-bans because anet can't make an auction house.

Despozblehero · Jun 14, 2007, 03:27 AM // 03:27

making rits spirit reliant spells conditional, best idea ive heard. *winkwink* *nudgenudge* anet!

Randvek · Jun 14, 2007, 04:10 AM // 04:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aera Lure

Improving the trading system would have been nice, but its not going to happen for GW. That's already been stated. The fact that there will be no auction house has no bearing on players "needing" to abuse the channels.

What is it with you people trying to justify All Channel trade spamming?

Way to completely miss my point AND stereotype me at the same time. Hat's off.

The same people spamming the trade channel are not the same people spamming the local channel. If you don't believe me, hit Kamadan, AD1, and count how many people you see on both. Go ahead, I'll wait.

...

...

...

Great, now let's take all those people unique to local channel and stick them in the same, already flooded channel. Hilarity ensues! I'm not saying flooding local channel is a good thing; on the contrary, it's annoying. I'm just saying that this response to it seems to not be particularly thought-out. Generally, any answer that involves suspending/banning offenders ought to be given serious thought. Rarely has "make more rules" been a good solution for anything, and that's coming from a lawyer! Address the underlying issue rather than create new rules. The underlying issue is that buying and selling of certain goods is difficult.

I have never advocated an "auction house" or anything similar to that, so please don't accuse me of such (I find it a bad idea, in fact). Heck, even allowing mods and inscriptions to be bought and sold at a trader who uses supply and demand would be a vast, vast improvement over what already exists, and would be exceptionally simple to implement.

Iceciro · Jun 14, 2007, 04:25 AM // 04:25

I agree. We need a weapon trader like we need a dye and insignia trainer.
It's one of those cases where things are only worth what you can sell them for - I've had a max chaos axe req 9 gold unidentified and the same stats on a bloody shadow blade just sitting in my box because I can't find the time to sell them over tradespam.

Strange Guy · Jun 14, 2007, 04:57 AM // 04:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mokone

........

you buffed one of the most dangerous and lame things; hexes.

you buffed stuff NOBODY will EVER care about. (see: warrior & elementalist stuff

you buffed ritualists - one of the most common spikes. GOOD JOB!!

you nerfed SR - i'm not sure if this is better or worse regarding the PvP spirit abuse, but at least you made a step in the right direction with your own spirits. now if you did the same with minions only.

you nerfed griefing builds in ra very poorly.

you tried to promote the smiting line, and it basically made zero changes.

you did not even manage to balance hero battles, not to speak of ACTUAL PvP.

just..wow.

the only good changes are the ATS and the Cripshot buff. oh and the armor cap, along with a defensive anthem nerf which might possibly be quite dangerous with the mesmer buffs but yeah..i want to see some actual game dominating things that just make stuff hilarious easy to win nerfed.

WTH are you complaining about? Hexes are one of the lame things? Dump thought! Hexes are fun to play with. Without hexes, what else will be fun to play? Just play a freaking iway and bash everyone with the axe or hammer? WoW man!

Rit spike does not need a nerf. Be more realistic. If you make a lame build consistent of ALL melee or fire, it will not be a build. To anti rit spike, you need tactics more likely! Killing spirit and pressure as well as shutting down the vital bonder. Play more to get more exp man.

Last word, so what is good build are you thinking of? Spirit way? Iway? Those are pure dmg, it has no hexes and oh it is not rit spike! Those are all good builds, just need more different builds to face and play! Just stop complaining and think of the other way to play a better and more efficient builds WITH the current change!

Thanks for the change that make GW game has different builds coming up after a decade of changing. Hope the upcoming build will be fun to play!

XvArchonvX · Jun 14, 2007, 05:13 AM // 05:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

They're both 100% longer. Sure you're not thinking of Frustration and its 50%?

Doh, yea. I did however forget to mention that Migraine has a 5 second less recharge than Conundrum however.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

Tbh i'd rather have the skills changing in PvE... using the same thing for years would just get boring, at least if things get changed because of PvP we have to do some thinking ourselves.

Yea, I look forward to skill updates from a PvE perspective. Even if they aren't usually changed with PvE in mind, they still change the experience and make the game feel a little more new again.

imkey · Jun 14, 2007, 05:29 AM // 05:29

the armor stack cap hurts warrior skills a bit.
Please change strength to grant 1 additional armor (against physical and elemental) for every point